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Old 19.02.2010, 08:19
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drbits drbits is offline
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Default Supporters should teach how to find solutions

Many, if not most people ask questions without searching the board or reading the recent discussion in a section. This means that there are fewer people who understand the product and more who need a lot of help. That is the meaning of my signature.

Furthermore, it is very hard to help a user when the message is just a description of a problem. We always need to know much more information. That is why we almost always ask for a detailed log and sample URLs when a user has a problem. Even simple improvement requests usually need samples.

I have seen discussions go on for over 10 messages before the user reveals some piece of information that allows us to easily find a solution. Usually, people find the solution to their problem as soon as they search the forum.

People are surprised that we always need a log. But the log contains information like the OS version and Java version as well as information about JD and what it did. To protect uploaders, the log does not contain URLs, so we ask for them (otherwise, we have nothing to test with).

My original proposal was that when information is missing, we tell the user what we need, but do not continue to try answering the questions while guessing at necessary information. When you read further, you will understand why that will not work. We are searching for a solution and want your help finding one.

The next two messages are from an earlier discussion, so I am deliberately breaking the rules and posting more than one message in a row.
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Last edited by drbits; 19.02.2010 at 08:39.
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  #2  
Old 19.02.2010, 08:26
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This was a post to get people to think about the problem, so it is a little outrageous.

We should not answer until people read the forum

It is my personal opinion that we are getting too many requests for help from people who have not read the earlier information in the forum. This is especially true in the Reconnection forum and people with Windows "7".

I have started using the following for people who have obviously not done any reading:

Quote:
Read the sticky posts and the past week's posts in the forum. This question will be ignored until you do your homework. You should not need help after you do the required reading.
If you have an improvement or disagreement, please let me know.

This is a problem in the French, Polish, Spanish, and Turkish forums. They cannot read the information in the German or English forums, so they need help even if they have not done the homework.

drbits
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  #3  
Old 19.02.2010, 08:33
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drbits drbits is offline
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There was no disagreement with the idea, but one of the support people pointed out that there are too many sticky posts and not enough real help in them.

I tried to summarize the problem and what we have to do before the sticky posts work.


remi responded with a good point. There is no "Read this Before Posting" sticky. We need one for each top=level forum and for each subforum. What follows is my suggestions and they will take time and work to implement.

The top level forum (English Support, Deutscher Support, and Polish Support basically have to tell people where to post their question or request. For example, if you don't know about them, it is hard to distinguish AC from Decrypter (I made that mistake). People have to know to search at this level for their answers.

A top-level sticky for the Polish Support forum will require assistance from the Polish speaking community.

Each of the subforums each need a single "Read this Before Posting" (or README) sticky that always stays at the top. For Bugreport, Wishes, and Decrypter report they need to say exactly what we expect and to contain links to the material in the Board or Wiki that can help users. Some of the current Stickies really belong in this list (for example, what I have written should not be sticky).

The other category, General Discussion should have a "ReadME" that indicates that supporters might not respond to their comments, it is truly discussion.

The French, Spanish, and Turkish communities are smaller and mostly have worked things out. Unfortunately, wishes from those communities may have to be relayed by the supporter (most users cannot read the stickies in the English or Deutsch boards.

The purpose of the Reconnection board is not clear. We need a README that tells people what they need to know, how to record their own script, and links to the other information. This is needed in several languages.

So, for now, they message we send back if they don't provide the information we need should say exactly where to look for what they need.

I intend to compose a list of messages (off-line) that I can copy from for this purpose. This is a step toward a README for each subforum. I can compose English and (poor) Deutsch and pass things on.

Opinions?
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  #4  
Old 19.02.2010, 14:11
remi
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Cool

I agree with most of what you write, but...

I think everybody has his/her style. You, drbits, want to write great articles, teach the members and contribute to a better software. It's a noble goal to help members to read and search, but it's not the goal of this forum.

Even if you would like to help members read and search, some will never learn it. Some people are just unable to do it. If you don't believe me, please read hXXp://encyclopedia.farlex.com/analphabetism. The numbers in this short article are staggering and you'll find similar numbers elsewhere.
An additional handicap for many members on this forum is that they don't know any of the languages in the forums. If they are intelligent then they use automated translation services, but everybody knows that the results of these translation engines can be total nonsense or very funny the least.

Also, search technology fails miserably because of a lack of a language independent ontology of the domain terminology. I understand some of the languages on this board and I search a lot every day, but I often need external search engines, a good memory (although I've a lot of doubts about it) and a lot of imagination to find what I'm searching for.

I don't know the number of jD customers. I think there must be thousands. I only see few customers posting on this board. Most customers solve their problems by searching and reading. They also don't care when a plug-in is outdated. They just wait until someone else, who isn't too lazy or urgently needs it, reports it.

I think technology can solve some issues we're having here. That's why I'm looking for a semantic web technology solution.

Concerning the README-FIRST post - what do you want to put in it? I wrote to you that in some forums there are too many stickies that members should read. These forums have become badly structured. The post you're referring to already exists :- see "General Bugreport (7 Viewing) Please read the corresponding article in our wiki!" This shows that even if you put the information, people tend to skip it.

I've started creating an F.A.Q. but after a while I saw that that it was very difficult to choose the really important questions. Every day I see the same old questions are asked in a slightly different way, from a slightly different angle.

Also the usability of the software can be increased by simply applying standard HMI (Human Machine Interface) recommendations. This would avoid many many questions and issues.

I think the idea of creating several forums per language wasn't a good one. A simple tagging system and a good search engine would solve Psp's problem of having to move threads around.

I think we should support freedom of expression. If people can't barely understand any of the languages of the forum, they should still be able to present their problem.

That said, I agree with you that we should give hints and try to educate people in using the forum to their advantage.

Last edited by remi; 20.02.2010 at 09:00. Reason: corrected some grammatical errors
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  #5  
Old 19.02.2010, 14:42
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pspzockerscene pspzockerscene is offline
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I am a really lazy person even if i made quite some stickies.
Most of the users still post in the wrong sections and so on but atm i leave it to drbits to manage the stuff with the stickies for the english forum, i ll do it later for the german forum^^

GreeZ psp
EDIT
Btw. guys this thread is free and open for public so everyone can post his/her opinion here
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Windows Setup<--JD2 BETA-->Linux Setup x86 || Linux Setup x64 || Mac Setup
-----=>Support Chat<=-----
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A users' JD crashes and the first thing to ask is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaz View Post
Do you have Nero installed?
That's true James
Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Die Leute verstehen einfach nicht dass nur weil man mit einer Waffe auch auf Menschen schießen kann dass ein Schützenver​ein kein Ort für Amoklaufide​en ist

Last edited by pspzockerscene; 19.02.2010 at 14:55.
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  #6  
Old 19.02.2010, 23:43
Carbofos Carbofos is offline
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I think the problem is, that forum isn't the most optimal structure to provide tech support.
I've noticed quite interesting solution at Linksys website:
Code:
**External links are only visible to Support Staff**
Click "Ask Linksys" on the right to see how it works. Of course, it doesn't always solve problems or has really relevant answers, but it does a good job at bumping off people with questions from FAQ
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  #7  
Old 20.02.2010, 08:59
remi
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Cool

Good example indeed, but the site copes with only one language. It's for English speaking people only. I asked a question in German and nothing was returned, because they don't have a language independent ontology, they don't translate, etc.

jD is a localised product and that's a great advantage.

Last edited by remi; 20.02.2010 at 09:02.
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  #8  
Old 20.02.2010, 11:13
Carbofos Carbofos is offline
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That's ok, the user could also select the language when asking question (or the system could be intelligent enough to tell), the far bigger problem would be finding out if there's such system available and setting it up it to work.
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  #9  
Old 20.02.2010, 13:06
remi
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I've never seen it, but I think it's feasible with current semantic web and ontology supporting technologies. The question is when it will happen or when we'll be able to find it and apply it to jD's website.

We should exploit the incredibly rich data stored in jD's .loc (language) files. In the Resource Description Framework (RDF) it's possible to tag items with a language tag.
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  #10  
Old 20.02.2010, 18:03
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scr4ve scr4ve is offline
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Hey drbits,

thank you for this great thread I like all the thoughts mentioned here a lot,
this discussion is necessary since we're still getting bigger i think.
In order to make a more efficient discussion out of this, I created a Wave for brainstorming. Since Google Wave is still invite-only, pn me with your mail if you're not invited yet (applies for the whole team). It might take some time until our whole support team joined, brainstorming becomes very much easier with wave anyway.

Feel free to participate here

Last edited by scr4ve; 20.02.2010 at 20:23.
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  #11  
Old 21.02.2010, 09:33
remi
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Sorry, but I can't participate in that Wave thing, because I don't trust Google at all.
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  #12  
Old 21.02.2010, 11:48
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pspzockerscene pspzockerscene is offline
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Use a proxy and a fake mail adress^^

GreeZ psp
__________________

Ad-free installers || Werbefreie Installer
Windows Setup<--JD2 BETA-->Linux Setup x86 || Linux Setup x64 || Mac Setup
-----=>Support Chat<=-----
Spoiler:

A users' JD crashes and the first thing to ask is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaz View Post
Do you have Nero installed?
That's true James
Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Die Leute verstehen einfach nicht dass nur weil man mit einer Waffe auch auf Menschen schießen kann dass ein Schützenver​ein kein Ort für Amoklaufide​en ist
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  #13  
Old 21.02.2010, 13:34
remi
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I already have a "fake" Google e-mail address, but my browser's configuration doesn't support Google's crap and I don't want to weaken my security settings or use another, less secure browser.
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