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  #121  
Old 04.09.2010, 11:45
remi
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I think if jD would use something like a P2P protocol, the system I described might not need a powerful server.

A central server would be very costly and jdownloader.org is an organisation of volunteers.
  #122  
Old 04.09.2010, 13:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
What do you think guys or did I steal someone's idea?
no, this idea is fair enough.
  #123  
Old 05.09.2010, 09:34
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A few general comments:
1) JDownloader.org cannot provide a server for dealing with Captchas. This includes hosting a p2p user list, processing data, forwarding data, or storing a representation of solved Captchas. Reasons are more than financial.
2) Anybody is welcome to write an addon that communicates with AntiCaptcha servers. Please make it general.
3) The AntiCaptchas that are most successful in JD are those that do not change frequently and are not specifically targeted at breaking JD and similar programs. If Google were only interested in elimination of spam, they would not react the way they do to our forums.
4) There are several problems related to AntiCaptcha that should also be considered in this discussion, including using multiple copies of JD on a computer, using mobile devices to view and respond to a captcha, and filling in the AntiCaptcha list for more hosts. For example, using multiple copies of JD concurrently means that any HTTP interface needs a separate port for each copy.
5) If somebody is going to produce a new AntiCaptcha, it does not have to communicate the entire JPEG, the JAC routines within JD can be used by the addon to reduce the data. In fact, the best approach may be to improve the filtering to eliminate things like big dots or white on black text, and then communicate a hash of what is left.
6) reCaptcha currently still uses only 2-value pixels. Changing to gray instead of black and white, adding color, adding different kinds of obfuscation all multiply the problems. Writing a solution for JD is unlikely to be productive. Using a more global service is probably better.
  #124  
Old 08.09.2010, 00:20
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Default Wann sind Captchas bei Hotfile deaktiviert?

Hallo,

hab schon gesucht aber nix gefunden. Weiss einer zufällig, ob Hotfile ein System hinter den Captchas hat, wann sie diese an oder ausmachen oder ist das immer zufällig? Haben vlt die Perioden eine feste Länge oder sowas in der Art?

Danke und Schönen Gruß

Last edited by Jiaz; 08.09.2010 at 11:07.
  #125  
Old 08.09.2010, 00:31
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Bitte einmal folgende Seite im Forum besuchen: Klick

Es ist jedoch ein internationaler/englischer Thread "Why don't hotfile, freakshare, and many others using "reCaptcha" have automatic Captcha recognition?"

Momentan ist es weder möglich die reCaptcha-Methode zu umgehen noch das Captcha von Hotfile und Co. automatisch vom jD erkennen zu lassen. Es sieht momentan auch eher schlecht aus, reCaptcha in die Knie zu zwingen;)

MfG
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  #126  
Old 08.09.2010, 12:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
Google has added at least one new obfuscation method in the past two days (White on Black with little or no border).
a good reason to do not waste time on recaptcha hacks:whistling::angel::angel::thumbup:
  #127  
Old 08.09.2010, 12:33
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They do that on a regular basis. Every complication will make Houck's algorithms more robust until no human will be able to read them and only his algorithms will.

The same happened in many other domains. Computers are overtaking humans in almost all domains of human "intelligent" activity.
  #128  
Old 09.09.2010, 13:56
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Default inter-user reCaptcha typing (for when we are away)

Consider creating three modes for reCapcha (or any unOCRable text) typing:

1. "normal", as JD works now: the capcha comes, I type it

2. "bring them all": I type my capchas as usual and also those of other downloaders. For that I gain credits.

3. "away": JD sends my captchas to users in the "bring them all" mode, spending my credits.

This would need a pool server to mediate the captcha transfer and keeping track of the credits, which may not be easy to implement, but the result would probably please many people

Last edited by Jiaz; 09.09.2010 at 18:30.
  #129  
Old 09.09.2010, 14:14
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Brilliant idea. See also "jD's customers could also solve each other's captchas".
  #130  
Old 09.09.2010, 16:05
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And who will pay the server costs? The devs are already paying enough. They don't gain anything at all.
I'd reject it...
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  #131  
Old 09.09.2010, 18:29
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at the moment we are busy enough with life and jd and work. who knows what future might bring
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  #132  
Old 10.09.2010, 11:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think3r View Post
And who will pay the server costs? The devs are already paying enough. They don't gain anything at all.
I'd reject it...
Greetz
Buongiorno Think3r!

Where did I write that a central server would have to manage all the traffic or processing? I haven't said how it would have to be implemented. I only suggested something like P2P in the other thread.

Another example is TOR. It isn't running on a central server neither. I prefer completely distributed architectures.
  #133  
Old 10.09.2010, 14:55
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@remi: You didn't but arara did.
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  #134  
Old 10.09.2010, 18:57
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Default DeCaptcher Support

I know this has already been requested, but I'd like to add more information.

DeCaptcher (.com) is a site where you can pay to have your CAPTCHAs solved by humans.
Quote:
You pay for correctly recognized CAPTCHAs only
The price is $2 for 1000 CAPTCHAs. We accept payments from $10.
They provide libraries in many languages, including Java, and an HTTP API.
Here's a link to the Java library: **External links are only visible to Support Staff****External links are only visible to Support Staff**

If you implement support, you have the option as an affiliate to charge extra money per CAPTCHA to get some revenue from this.

By registering a (free) account on the site you can get access to more information and documentation which isn't available on the front page.

I think this would be a great feature for people who download files from many hosts and can't afford to pay for premium on all of them.

Edit:
Why was my thread moved into this one? It is not about recaptcha!

Last edited by DeathByNukes; 10.09.2010 at 20:02.
  #135  
Old 10.09.2010, 19:13
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2$ per 1000 captchas ! solved by humans ! sic ! i think salary for these poors ppl was a little higher than this amount...
  #136  
Old 10.09.2010, 20:13
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Default DeCaptcher Support

-snip-

Last edited by DeathByNukes; 12.09.2010 at 20:47.
  #137  
Old 11.09.2010, 02:01
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Default How to do Captcha P2P with little server time.

Every P2P technique requires a method to find a starter list of peers.

In distributed P2P, each user has a list of peers. This contains all of that user's peers (with some removed because they are old). Each time a user's computer contacts a peer, it asks for the answer. If the answer is not available, then the peers list is requested and added to the end of the user's accumulated list of peers (after removing duplicates).

As with all P2P, a specific port must be opened in the firewall. Each time a peer list is requested, the request includes the requesting computer's IP:port. There would usually be a limit to the number of peers transferred (maybe 100 or those connected within X hours). Port 9666 could be used if a password is required for most actions, but not P2P.

The Captcha challenges could be hashed (possibly with CRC32) and the answer communicated back in a simple encoding (such as that used in MIME).

The problem with this approach is that it can require many thousands of requests before the answer is found, if it is ever found (this could be the first presentation of the challenge). This search would have to work concurrently with the presentation of the challenge to the user (a user answer aborts the search).

The central list is only necessary occasionally. The user's computer would save the old peer list and use the peers discovered within Y hours. It would be necessary for all new users. The list should not be distributed inside the installation Zip.

This is based on DHT, and related protocols.

Update about the central list - A fully distributed approach.

If a few users upload their peer list daily, that would work and not require a tracker (it would be a distributed tracker). This could be a folder containing a file for each region, stored on two hosts (perhaps MU and HF or Uploading.to or Megashares.com). Using HF would currently work, because the files are small. If any money is earned, it would go toward supporting the jdownloader.org servers.

The list is just a list of hostname:port or preferably IPaddr:port. For IPv4, the IPaddr could be a single integer. If the numbers are hexadecimal encoded, it would look like a debugger file.

Last edited by drbits; 12.09.2010 at 06:28.
  #138  
Old 11.09.2010, 06:17
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@ DeathByNukes,

Your message was moved, because this is where this kind of service is being discussed. Except for those sites using reCaptcha, JD has a working anti-Captcha plugin for the most common sites.

We do not allow commercial advertising in the forum, and most users cannot see your link
"hxxp://www.decaptcher.com/client/downloader/?i=18".
Any proposal you have should be emailed to support@jdownloader.org
Any future advertising will most likely result in your being banned from the forum.

I believe that there is a policy at JDownloader.org against any contract between JDownloader.org and any anti-Captcha company. No such software will be allowed to run on the JDownloader.org servers. What has been proposed is a generic API for requesting answers when JD cannot solve the Captcha.

@ willemijns,
The idea (for the most part) is to build a database of Captcha challenges and answers. People are only involved when the challenge is not in the database. Of course, there is code to solve some of the Captchas, just as JD contains such code. The pay is quite good in some places in the world (5 EU/day goes a long way in some places).

Last edited by drbits; 11.09.2010 at 06:20.
  #139  
Old 11.09.2010, 07:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
Your message was moved, because this is where this kind of service is being discussed. Except for those sites using reCaptcha, JD has a working anti-Captcha plugin for the most common sites.

We do not allow commercial advertising in the forum, and most users cannot see your link
"hxxp://www.decaptcher.com/client/downloader/?i=18".
Any proposal you have should be emailed to support@jdownloader.org
Any future advertising will most likely result in your being banned from the forum.

I believe that there is a policy at JDownloader.org against any contract between JDownloader.org and any anti-Captcha company. No such software will be allowed to run on the JDownloader.org servers. What has been proposed is a generic API for requesting answers when JD cannot solve the Captcha.
I'm not an advertiser. Do you really think a spam linker would have unchecked the "Automatically parse links in text" option? That link is a hotlink to a file that you would otherwise have to register and log in to see.

There seems to be a misunderstanding. I'm requesting support for the API in JDownloader so that I and others can enter our DeCaptcher user/pass and have it solve our CAPTCHAs by submitting it to our accounts, which we paid into.
  #140  
Old 11.09.2010, 07:56
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@drbits ok i understand they are not compatible with recaptcha, i was afraid of this...

@drbits/deathbynukes i was surprising too to see this moved subject here too... maybe a
new specific thread about JD captcha API ?
  #141  
Old 11.09.2010, 08:04
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I apologize. I did misunderstand your message intent. The other parts of the post are still valid.

Since DeCaptcher has competition, the proposal is for a generic API that runs an external program, passing the name of the file containing Captcha challenge on the command line. The name of the host will also probably be included on the command line. The result will probably be read from stdin (stdout of the program).

This way, regardless of the outside site's API, there would not be any change to JD. Your external program could store your login information for DeCaptcher in a file unrelated to JD.

This insulates JD from various technical and legal issues.
_________________________________________

The only issues to settle for the JD Captcha Addon API is how and what data will be passed to the external program and how and what data will be returned.

I believe that the JD developer team will not implement anything for this. Once the Event Manager is working, there will not be a need for an addon or API from JD dev.

Last edited by drbits; 11.09.2010 at 08:11.
  #142  
Old 11.09.2010, 11:16
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we will discuss and sort some things out
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  #143  
Old 11.09.2010, 11:25
remi
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Cool

I found a cheaper anticaptcha service :- "**External links are only visible to Support Staff**

Their price is $1.75 per 1000 correctly solved CAPTCHAs which equates to $0.00175 each.

They solve captchas for sites like Gogol (reCAPTCHA), communist network sites and other monopolist, corporate, power elite Mafia sites.

They offer a response time of 10 to 35 seconds and that 24/7.

They support a Java API. Here it is :- "**External links are only visible to Support Staff**.

Who'll be the hero who'll finally solve this issue once and for all and rewrite jD's history?
  #144  
Old 11.09.2010, 11:29
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updated ticket
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  #145  
Old 11.09.2010, 11:48
remi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
1) JDownloader.org cannot provide a server for dealing with Captchas. This includes hosting a p2p user list, processing data, forwarding data, or storing a representation of solved Captchas. Reasons are more than financial.
Are you taking these decisions now? Please, explain your reasons. You were the first on this board who tried to crack reCaptcha but failed. Now that somebody else did it, you seem to be defending these illegal techniques.
It's not because your CA governor Browneggs has created a very bizar law, that the rest of your country and the world must subordinate to that local law. Wouldn't it mean that using jD in your state would be considered illegal? Please, surrender to the police or stop this hypocrisy. LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
3) The AntiCaptchas that are most successful in JD are those that do not change frequently and are not specifically targeted at breaking JD and similar programs. If Google were only interested in elimination of spam, they would not react the way they do to our forums.
How do you know Gogol reacts to this forum? I know they use their spiders to index its contents, but do they really participate? Please, tell us who are these Gogol spies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
6) reCaptcha currently still uses only 2-value pixels. Changing to gray instead of black and white, adding color, adding different kinds of obfuscation all multiply the problems. Writing a solution for JD is unlikely to be productive. Using a more global service is probably better.
Using colour would not only discriminate against visually impaired and blind people, but would also exclude colour blind people. This would increase the level illegality in some developed countries.
  #146  
Old 11.09.2010, 12:05
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Is a moderator can create a thread about remi comments coz it become really annoying !!!
i respect his opinion but see this near of every day... euh....
  #147  
Old 11.09.2010, 12:07
remi
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Cool Stop double posting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
I believe that there is a policy at JDownloader.org against any contract between JDownloader.org and any anti-Captcha company. No such software will be allowed to run on the JDownloader.org servers. What has been proposed is a generic API for requesting answers when JD cannot solve the Captcha.
I've never seen that policy. Since jD uses anti-captcha methods I don't see how a policy could forbid using an external service. Please, explain.
The contracts should be between the customers and these service providers, unless jD wants to make some money, which is understandable.

I agree that technically (maybe also financially, when no payments are involved) a decentralised solution is preferable, but I don't see why you're always using technical/financial arguments when they aren't needed.

Just let the customers choose whether they want to pay for an external service or want to solve each other's (re)Captchas. I prefer the latter solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willemijns View Post
Is a moderator can create a thread about remi comments coz it become really annoying !!!
i respect his opinion but see this near of every day... euh....
What are you referring to? Please, explain and I'll elaborate on it.

Last edited by drbits; 12.09.2010 at 03:59.
  #148  
Old 11.09.2010, 12:56
remi
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Thanks for this nice explanation of Distributed Hash Tables (DHT). I agree that only new customers/installs would need this initial list, but this list can be put on any server. This doesn't need to be one of jD's servers. It could also be any "OCH" server.

BTW, my jD version is still contacting a jD server whenever it starts. This isn't strictly needed either.
  #149  
Old 11.09.2010, 13:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willemijns View Post
Is a moderator can create a thread about remi comments coz it become really annoying !!!
i respect his opinion but see this near of every day... euh....
Funny - I enjoy remi's messages and mostly agree with them.
  #150  
Old 11.09.2010, 13:36
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IMHO i more disagree than agree but they are no interest to repeat this X times per week.
  #151  
Old 11.09.2010, 13:58
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EDIT: I'm sorry guys that I need to edit this message, as it is no longer understandable in its context. drbits likes reading my posts and he loves editing, moving, merging and destroying them. Since I'm not someone's slave I'll try to reconstitute my messages and put them again in their context. Two posts from different threads were merged here.

EDIT: FIRST MESSAGE ----------------------

EDIT: @DeathByNukes

EDIT: this was an answer to http://board.jdownloader.org/showpos...&postcount=117 in a thread called "DeCaptcher Support" that was removed.

I agree, thinking/reading before acting would be better.

There are now two [International] (re)Captcha threads. Why is this?

OT/BTW, is your name referring to the planned attack by the US/Israhell coalition on Iran?

EDIT: SECOND MESSAGE ----------------------

EDIT: @Willemijns

I'll repeat some phrases of one of the PM's I replied to you, because there's nothing private about it and I can as well share this with other people :-

Quote:
It's the first time I wrote about colour blind people, because drbits wrote about adding colours.

Can you prove that spamming is blocked with (re)Captcha? Can you find scientific evidence for this?
IMO, these (re)Captcha annoyances are used by some hosts because they don't have the technical competences to offer other means for differentiating between premium and other customers.

Last edited by remi; 13.09.2010 at 12:05. Reason: see first EDIT
  #152  
Old 11.09.2010, 18:48
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Normally, Recaptcha permit to read more ads when you saw it from a browser ? no it can helps but we know some of them pay users for downloading files so an non-well know unhacked method as recaptcha helps to avoid "downloads by proxys"
  #153  
Old 12.09.2010, 04:33
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Some quick answers:
1) The policy of not using JD resources for reCaptcha breaking appears in comments in the forum and PMs from the management. It is not fixed in stone, but JD will not pay money for the solution or use a server for this purpose.

It is also the policy of JD management to discourage breaking reCaptcha, because of the spam problems. These new services are allowing "users" to post a lot of spam on this site (the spam filters work well, but somebody has to check for real messages).

2) Google spyders (indexes) this site and has a filter to highlight reCaptcha discussion. Anti-Google discussion is also highlighted. I never tried to build a reCaptcha breaker, but only discussed it on this board. Each time I proposed an unconventional approach, changes were made to the reCaptcha challenges that would counter exactly my proposal (within 3 days).

3) The use of greyscale and colour in Captchas is not new. When uGotFile changed their Captcha to use color, it sent JD's antiCaptcha routines into an infinite loop. That is why that site does not currently have antiCaptcha (it was removed in the plugin update the day after the site change).

4) The International Captcha thread explicitly prohibits posts about reCaptcha (they get moved here). This thread is in General Discussion, so people can write freely (within the board rules), rather than being restricted by the Hosters Plugins Forum rules. There is also a reCaptcha solution thread that is specifically for ways to break reCaptcha (nobody has posted there in months).

5) I was disappointed that there was already a user named Freeloader on this site. I cannot afford premium accounts. I am a freeloader and that probably won't change. I do not care that others are making money from my downloads and I believe that the Host companies are entitled to make a reasonable profit.

6) My personal politics are not for discussion here. The economic problems of the world (and their causes) are not for discussion here. This is the wrong board. Using any political statements to attempt to justify anything on this board just gets you ignored. Doing so in the topic-specific forums gets you banned.
  #154  
Old 12.09.2010, 10:03
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> It is also the policy of JD management to discourage breaking reCaptcha, because of the spam problems.

yes, i have seen this kind of message 2 times in minimal.

remi asked me in PM a proof of QoS recaptcha againt spammers, i'm sure than recaptcha
method eject SK (script kiddies) spammers... and if recaptcha is not sufficient google will change "on the fly" the algorythm used on it.

If recaptcha works well for file hosting services, it is because end users accept to
type them !!! it is because file hosters pays uploaders a lot in exhange to avoid faked
automated downloads !!! period.
  #155  
Old 12.09.2010, 11:47
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@drbits:

Thanks for some answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
1) ... It is not fixed in stone, but JD will not pay money for the solution or use a server for this purpose.

It is also the policy of JD management to discourage breaking reCaptcha, because of the spam problems. These new services are allowing "users" to post a lot of spam on this site (the spam filters work well, but somebody has to check for real messages).
Fair. Others, including jD's competititors, will propose solutions. As I said before, these solutions don't need to cost jD a fortune. They only cost some volunteer time.

The only spam I've seen on these forums in the last months are people who post one message an disappear. It's sufficient to put new members' posts in quarantine and only after a few non-spam posts allow them as real members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
2) Google spyders (indexes) this site and has a filter to highlight reCaptcha discussion. Anti-Google discussion is also highlighted. I never tried to build a reCaptcha breaker, but only discussed it on this board. Each time I proposed an unconventional approach, changes were made to the reCaptcha challenges that would counter exactly my proposal (within 3 days).
Wow, They've become really paranoid. I like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drbits View Post
6) My personal politics are not for discussion here. The economic problems of the world (and their causes) are not for discussion here. This is the wrong board. Using any political statements to attempt to justify anything on this board just gets you ignored. Doing so in the topic-specific forums gets you banned.
What are you doing? Isn't this politics? Politics is everywhere and at every level of society. Nobody can hide for it. Even the +2 million prisoners of the US are confronted to politics on a daily basis.
  #156  
Old 12.09.2010, 12:06
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@willemijns

Here are some answers to the few things I understand from your post.

Please, read my reply to drbits.

Not all people like typing captchas. Why are you posting in this thread if you like typing captchas?

If hosts are using captchas because they don't like automated downloads, they'll also lose customers because I'm convinced most freeloaders don't like typing captchas. They will discourage uploaders to upload to these hosts. If uploaders' files don't get downloaded they won't make a profit.

I know you don't like me repeating what I already wrote. That's why I refer to point 3) of my post #174 in the "[International] Captcha Recognitions Thread".
  #157  
Old 12.09.2010, 14:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
The only spam I've seen on these forums in the last months are people who post one message an disappear. It's sufficient to put new members' posts in quarantine and only after a few non-spam posts allow them as real members.
in well known and serious forums, the spam does not hold X hours due to moderators...
  #158  
Old 12.09.2010, 14:51
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> Please, read my reply to drbits.

i c

> Not all people like typing captchas. Why are you posting in this thread if you like typing captchas?

I hate but ppl prefers to type 2 bad words instead of finding a new URL to download the content in a nocaptcha/easycaptcha file hosters...

> If hosts are using captchas because they don't like automated downloads, they'll also lose customers because I'm convinced most freeloaders don't like typing captchas. They will discourage uploaders to upload to these hosts. If uploaders' files don't get downloaded they won't make a profit.

no, recaptcha hosters will not pay more than easy/nocaptcha services...

> I know you don't like me repeating what I already wrote. That's why I refer to point 3) of my post #174 in the "[International] Captcha Recognitions Thread".[/QUOTE]

mafia/big spammers groups have recaptcha hack tools it is not a secret...
before the public hack you give !!! JD team (as me) think hack recaptcha is a waste of time.
  #159  
Old 13.09.2010, 06:15
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@ willemijns,
I am not sure what you are trying to say in the last paragraph.

According to PSP, our spam filter is blocking a large number of spam messages that people try to post (they pay for the reCaptcha answers). Some automated post programs will attempt to post the message into every thread.

Currently, PSP has to examine the posts and determine which quarantined messages to let through. People have already broken the spam filters from major companies.

The idea of a Junior Member quarantine has been rejected by Jiaz. We even supply a BugMeNot account to allow people to anonymously ask questions.

Most Forum sites have more staff and time dedicated to moderation. When a user reports a spam message, the moderator searches for and deletes all messages from that user and bans the account and IP address (banning is almost worthless at stopping spam). We do that here as well. You do not see much of the spam, because PSP does most of the work.

Spammers using random user IDs, random passwords, random proxies (for example Tor), and reCaptcha breakers can get away with posting anything. As they learn to work around the rules for the major antispam programs, spammers will become more of a problem.

Google can and has acted quickly to block automated approaches to breaking reCaptcha. The algorithm that is circulating has less than a 20% success rate. Adding an increasing delay (lock out) for each successive wrong answer (1 minute, 6 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes) will make that algorithm a poor approach.

Google has several more tricks to make the reCaptcha challenges harder for automated breaking, but not significantly harder for human readability. They appear to be using some on a trial basis.

Unfortunately, the only way to fight the Monkey algorithm (use cheap labour to build a database) is to increase the size of the challenge/response data base or obfuscate the challenges in too many ways for the software to recognize. Google has the resources for both, but hiring more cheap labour will continue to plague reCaptcha.

If you try to download a file from ugotfile, you will notice that the Captcha image is very different from most. There is a randomly generated coloured background, coloured foreground letters and digits, and coloured twisty bars that are the same colour as (some of) the foreground characters.

Every CAPTCHA is subject to the Monkey algorithm, but by adding random factors, an image can be made hard to match against the database. That is why I wrote that Google has not even started adding grey-scale and colour to the background.

Last edited by drbits; 13.09.2010 at 06:19.
  #160  
Old 13.09.2010, 08:57
willemijns
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before the public hack you give !! => i spoken of remi link given X days to crack recaptcha with 30/35% of good answers....

a few boards use recaptcha for subscription, i have never seen here a spam...

> Every CAPTCHA is subject to the Monkey algorithm,

No ! the google contents for recaptcha is (near of) unlimited coz they try to purpose bad OCR words for millions of books so it is stupid to have a DB captchas for this kind of datas...

I have tried under a VPN a recaptcha challenge, at the third try the main word was easy
("for" word) if i typed "for xxxxxxxxx" or "for yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy" i think the challenge could be OK...

Last edited by willemijns; 13.09.2010 at 11:53. Reason: char errors
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