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  #41  
Old 09.09.2011, 10:16
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If you can prove that jD can install it without your permission you've a point, but you would be the first person here.
  #42  
Old 10.09.2011, 14:56
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I know I'm only a first time poster here but I've been using JDownloader for quite some time now and I've enjoyed it a lot.

I re-installed JDownloader yesterday and afterwards I noticed both my browsers (IE and FF) had a different start page, had a toolbar added and I got all kinds of popups.

Now I'm very sure I was never asked during installation to install anything other then JDownloader. I've installed tons of software on my PC and I would know if the software asks we to install something shady.

So I frankly don't care what some people may call it, to me it's malware as it installs and changes things on my pc without my permission. So unless it's removed I'm really sorry to say I'm going to find another free download manager.
  #43  
Old 11.09.2011, 06:03
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You have installed facemoods by clicking NEXT on the installer without reading the prompts. Not sure why people take to this negatively you are given the option to opt out. Clearly people are still not reading the installer terms/text as they are just clicking next.
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  #44  
Old 11.09.2011, 15:42
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I must say that even if i found the "skip" button i can understand the critics of our users and i hope it'll be removed or swapped with something else in the future...

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  #45  
Old 11.09.2011, 16:55
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Exactly, It's easy enough to click no/decline. To me anyone that installs addons like this (very common, winamp been doing it for years), it's there own fault for not reading/following install guide correctly.

BTW, I downloaded the latest installer just to make that screen shot!
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  #46  
Old 21.09.2011, 14:02
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It's convenient to blame end users for unwittingly installing bundled rubbish. The adware in JD is constructed in such a way that it's easy to install by mistake. Those check boxes and opt-out options are not clear enough, and obviously designed to confuse users. I am experienced and almost made the wrong choice. Bad bad bad.
  #47  
Old 21.09.2011, 14:31
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What you write is true (especially the fine print in quasi white font on a white background) but this principle is valid at a much larger scale.

If propaganda (or ad-ware or advertising) wouldn't work we would never had wars and other planetary problems because there wouldn't be corrupt power elites. Propaganda (nowadays called public relations) is manufactured by the power elites and obediently swallowed by the hard working, consenting slaves of this planet.

I never read fine print. Not only because of my bad eyes but also for the reason that even if I would be able to read it I would spend the rest of my life trying to understand it. This is exactly why these power elites have so much power. They've all the rights and no obligations nor responsibilities. It's written in laws and regulations. Why would they care as long as the population doesn't understand what they say or write?
  #48  
Old 21.09.2011, 23:06
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Sorry the radio buttons, and the descriptions associated with facemoods are clear and easy to understand, if you read the installation prompts. If you click next automatically you will miss the opt out, and install facemoods. Always read installer regardless if you've installed 100 times before. Terms and conditions change, so does the contents within a installer. Once again this is user error.
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  #49  
Old 22.09.2011, 08:46
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That's exactly the way power elites reason and how to acquire more power, just on a smaller scale. The idiot lusers (the people) are to blame because they are outsmarted by the much smarter malware builders (power elite).
  #50  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:02
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I just hate it when people blame others when its clearly there own wrong doing. The installer has opt out options, if you look at the screen shot (#44) its easy to pick up. Saying you're tricked or outsmarted is fallacy, once again my advise is too read the install prompts and stop blaming others for your own mistake.

I liken it too smokers (cigarettes) everyone knows they are dangerous to your health and highly addictive, yet people are still taking up the dirty habit.
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Last edited by raztoki; 22.09.2011 at 09:04.
  #51  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:14
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That's exactly what I also hear from power elites' public relations. By mixing things up they try to confuse the debate. Smoking or other addictions have nothing to do with being able to read or understand all the fine print.

BTW, smokers usually start smoking at a young age when they aren't aware of the dangers (addiction, cancer, and other health risks) because their parents don't even know they're smoking and can't inform them in time. That's also the reason why there are so many child pregnancies in some fundamentalist/prude countries. Those parents still think that sex isn't something for children.
  #52  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pspzockerscene View Post
Hey people.
MANY other software developers (which develop PAID software) also have toolbars and addons in their installers.
When paying attention while installing software you can deselect those toolbars and if you don't, well honestly you're stupid.
Just take ICQ as an example...most people just click "next" all the time and then they install things they don't want.
I am sorry, but is this really your excuse for having unwanted software in the installer? Because many others do it too? These softwares are just as bad. Any software that bundles itself with unwanted software like ask.com etc. is to be avoided. It's just not worth it.

You are beating around the bush with this post, obviously you know that these things are horrible and facemoods in particular is even one of the worst. It's completely and utterly useless software. JDownloader included it for the money, I get that. But I would rather pay for an excellent software like JDownloader, than it having to resort to such low, very, very low measures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pspzockerscene View Post
If, in real life, you always "press" accept you'll lose your money:rolleyes:
What you are actually saying here is, that in "real life", cons, phishing and fraud is ok, because it exploits the "stupidity" of an individual.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coalado View Post
@remi:
No sorry. Anyway, this would not help anybody. Bundleing JDownloader is very important to keep JD free. If every user would pay a few cents, we could remove bundles completely.
I would gladly pay a few euros, not just cents.
But in its current state, with unwanted software bundled to the installation, I am reluctant to flattr or Donate :(.



Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
You have installed facemoods by clicking NEXT on the installer without reading the prompts. Not sure why people take to this negatively you are given the option to opt out. Clearly people are still not reading the installer terms/text as they are just clicking next.
The issue is, that it is deliberately activated by default during the installation, knowing that users simply will click next. As already said, exploiting the stupidity of the users does not morally justify this.
  #53  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:59
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@remi
Not sure what it has to do with mixing it up, or confusing debate/situation, nor the power elite. The installer has opt out features, is clear as day! That is, if you bother to read the installer prompts.

I know with smoking here it's been drummed into kids at primary school age and younger not to smoke, has been since the 80's (maybe earlier). The only places that wouldn't have similar policies in this modern world/era would be countries without those type of education systems or formal structures. Most governments while taxing smoking heavily, also realise that its costing their health systems greatly (directly and indirectly). But for economic reasons in the now, they do not out right ban the sale/act of smoking of cigarettes as its a major cash cow. That and the associated problems of the underground then just taking over. That said even educated people still take up smoking regardless. People will do was they wish/want.

And to your teen/child sex comments yes it happens, in years past families used to hide it, I'd say now its more accepted/tolerated. Having a look at American TV Series, Multiple shows highlighting/following young parents around, which in turn has made them into 'reality tv stars'. These sort of problems wont go anywhere its human/animal nature to multiply the species.

Anyway guess this isn't on topic ; end of convo.
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  #54  
Old 22.09.2011, 10:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spooky View Post
The issue is, that it is deliberately activated by default during the installation, knowing that users simply will click next. As already said, exploiting the stupidity of the users does not morally justify this.
Those are common industry practices. It's nearly always opt out and not opt in. Once again if you read the installer prompts you wouldn't have a problem.

In the end it results in a few annoyed/pissed *** users who generally get in angry but not necessarily at themselves, but look to shift the blame. It's common sense is to take responsibility for your own actions.

It's catch 22 situation, If more people donated surely the team wouldn't need to bother with these type of revenue streams. Even if every user donated 1 dollar ~15million users = 15million$ which then could be spent on staff, server hosts fees, Research and Development.
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  #55  
Old 22.09.2011, 10:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
@remi
Not sure what it has to do with mixing it up, or confusing debate/situation, nor the power elite. The installer has opt out features, is clear as day! That is, if you bother to read the installer prompts.
The installer ist there, because the team needs the money. And the installer is deliberately active by default, in the hopes of tricking users into installing it, when they just click next. Otherwise users would never, ever install a software like facemoods on purpose on their system, bundled or standalone. facemoods in particular is not just "potentially" unwanted software, as these things are mostly called, but it's completely useless and unwanted software.


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Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
Those are common industry practices.
So you are really saying, that just because it's common, it's ok? If the JDownloader team thinks the same way, if they really think it's ok to do this, then they are really taking a low road here.

I really hope their moral point of view on the world is not like that. I think JDownloader is an excellent software, much much better than its non-Java counterparts at least and it just saddens me, that they have to resort to such measures.


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Originally Posted by coalado View Post
It will be removed completely, and replaced by something better. Until this "something" is ready for release, we decided to keep facemoods.

To avoid "Installs by accident", we re-layouted the installed screen, and implemented the "custom" options.

However, it seems that it is not possible to avoid this at all.
It is perhaps a good idea to publish some Step-by-step instructions to revert the facemoods installation.
The only thing that would be "better" is, if no software is bundled by default with the installer. I think it would be much, much better if you guys just included a message to ask for help with donations or to use the flattr button on the website for instance.


Regarding the catch 22: yeah, it sucks :(.
  #56  
Old 22.09.2011, 11:20
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Disclaimer:
I'm not 'working for/assoicated with' appwork, I'm only volunteer of jdownloader. There for am not speaking on behalf of appwork

I've been around computers and software for ~25 years. I'm also speaking from experience installing/using software in the past. My observations are, it's common practice within these type of revenue streams to default install unless the user opts out. Some might not have any default opt (in/out) settings, making the user choose before continuing, but this isn't the norm. Please remember that default positions exist within installers regardless eg. 'default install path, default create program menu, default file associations', this is no different.

No one likes making a mistake installing unwanted/necessarily software, but it is your mistake if you click next without reading the installer instructions. It's possibly even against the law as you've done the same thing for the licence agreement.

If this was truly a trick it would be installed without any 'opt in/out' options. Once again this is not to confuse or to trick you. If you read the prompts you shouldn't have problems.

I've personally come close to installing 3rd party addons in the past (winamp/other software - usually ask.com bar) but usually I review (go back) settings before clicking install, this has saved me numerous times when multitasking and not paying enough attention.

Personally I don't like these type of revenue streams either, but I can understand why they are needed.
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  #57  
Old 22.09.2011, 11:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
I've been around computers and software for ~25 years. I'm also speaking from experience installing/using software in the past. My observations are, it's common practice within these type of revenue streams to default install unless the user opts out. Some might not have any default opt (in/out) settings, making the user choose before continuing, but this isn't the norm. Please remember that default positions exist within installers regardless eg. 'default install path, default create program menu, default file associations', this is no different.
No, this is very different. Software might come with more than just one application bundled. But in this case, it is completely unwanted and unnecessary software that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the software you actually want to install. Its sole purpose is to create money and as such it is only available as an opt-out.


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Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
No one likes making a mistake installing unwanted/necessarily software, but it is your mistake if you click next without reading the installer instructions. It's possibly even against the law as you've done the same thing for the licence agreement.
No one is debating, that it is your "mistake". But it is your mistake as well, if you are a victim of phishing, it is your mistake as well if you give your money to a con man, it is your mistake as well if you unknowingly agree to an agreement change, that a service provider deliberately hid on a piece of paper he sent you that looked like an advertisement for other products, knowing that you would not read it (a practice that some mobile providers here in Austria are starting to use).

Just because it is always the individual's mistake does not justify the actions of all these other individuals, that tricked you. Otherwise you are saying that it is ok to exploit other people's "stupidity".


Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
If this was truly a trick it would be installed without any 'opt in/out' options.
It would be worse if it was installed without having the option to disable it during the install, that is for sure. The reputation of JD would probably plummet in such a case, or at least more than it does now (if it does now at all that is).


Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
Once again this is not to confuse or to trick you. If you read the prompts you shouldn't have problems.
The reason it is in there, is because each installation of facemoods creates supports the JD team, at least according to the text during the installation. Don't you agree that facemoods itself is completely pointless and nobody would ever willingly install such a software? If so, why do you think the developers made it only an opt-out option anyway, instead of opt-in?


Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
I've personally come close to installing 3rd party addons in the past (winamp/other software - usually ask.com bar) but usually I review (go back) settings before clicking install, this has saved me numerous times when multitasking and not paying enough attention..
I do that as well. But in all cases, or, well, most cases now, I usually choose to not use the software, if I see that they bundle unwanted software like ask.com etc. with them.


It may be a necessary evil, but I sure hope the JD team will reconsider this and may be promote donations more instead.

Last edited by Spooky; 22.09.2011 at 11:36.
  #58  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:10
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Interesting comments. The debate is finally being raised to a higher level. Note that this is a level that power elites don't like and tend to censor. Usually the smarter people who don't agree with the power elites are involved in some sort of freaky car accident, they're paid a lot of money or their warnings are lost in a huge propaganda stream funded by huge, monopolistic profits or tax payers money.

Also note that organisations don't have moral or ethical values even if their PR says they have. Only persons can have moral values and they seem to be different from one person to another. If these values wouldn't be different you wouldn't have people willing to work for organisations, companies or governments. The bigger they are the more corrupt they are.

So far the contextual background. Back to the particular issue at hand. I call unwanted or completely and utterly useless software malware because it consumes resources and gives nothing in return.

If funding a project is only possible by adding malware to software and hoping there are enough stupid lusers or people with bad eyes to install the malware then I think a project should be stopped. This moral value I have is based on "Don't do to other people what you don't want to happen to yourself".

@raztoki

Concerning your educational system; children start smoking because the pressure by the Tobacco Mafia is higher than the pressure of the educational system and the parents combined. Note that children like to do things that are dangerous and forbidden. This behaviour is exploited by the Tobacco Mafia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
Disclaimer:
I'm not 'working for/assoicated with' appwork, I'm only volunteer of jdownloader. There for am not speaking on behalf of appwork
...
Personally I don't like these type of revenue streams either, but I can understand why they are needed.
Your disclaimer is worth nothing because under your name I see JD-Supporter which contradicts what you're saying. You belong to jD's organisation. Also using the word "Personally" at the end of your post might let people think you aren't speaking freely most of the time.

The installer instructions are written in barely readable font and some people haven't the eyes you have. Note that I don't know anybody who reads licence agreements, because I don't know any lawyers.

I thought all people working for this project are volunteers, who don't want to be paid. I can understand that servers and bandwidth cost money, but there are places where open software can be hosted for free. Why isn't this road taken?
  #59  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:16
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@Spooky
Terms of agreement also exist within facemoods options (doubt anyone reads it). People that read the prompt, see that its for animations (Smileys/winks/emotions) for 'facebook' would just install without second thought. I'm sure you would still have unhappy users regardless of additional steps informing users prior to installation.

Default options exist as I've explained, it's still up to the user to decide either way and make an informed decision to install or not. In regards to your statement of relevance, no doubt that revenue streams have little to no relevance to the program been installed. It's whole purpose is to return revenue to the authors or publishers, hence its default setting. I'm not arguing in the contrary. Default settings exist, you're meant too adjust for your needs/wants.

Really depends if you're been exploited legally or illegally, as there's a clear definition within law and business practice. This shouldn't be confused or compared with illegal practice as this isn't. For example, a user not keeping there computer updated (there fault) and finds his computer exploited due to vulnerabilities. The owner still hasn't given consent to be hacked/accessed remotely/etc. In reference to JD + facemoods, When the user accepts the terms and agrees to install facemoods they have given there consent, big difference.

Companies love fine print, phone/internet service providers here do it all the time also. Many years ago (10~) our major telco went from having unlimited data allowances to 3gb/month regardless of your internet speed (cable/adsl) == 300MB/day. They got away with it as it was written in the terms they could change at any point.

As you've already indicated with your coalodo quote, that the facemoods addition within the installer will be reviewed at the next version. Guess we will see what happens then.
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  #60  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:19
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Btw. another thing to consider: JD users, who have used and loved this software for a while now, will probably simply trust in JD, that its installer does not do anything out of order, since they haven't experienced anything out of the ordinary in the past as well.

It was similar to that in my case as well. I did not expect the JD installer to have Malware in it all of a sudden. Luckily I noticed, when I chose "Custom install" as I always do with any software (partially to detect Malware in the installation process as well), thinking it is the custom install option for JD itself, until I saw the "facemoods" text under there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
@Spooky
Terms of agreement also exist within facemoods options (doubt anyone reads it). People that read the prompt, see that its for animations (Smileys/winks/emotions) for 'facebook' would just install without second thought. I'm sure you would still have unhappy users regardless of additional steps informing users prior to installation.

Default options exist as I've explained, it's still up to the user to decide either way and make an informed decision to install or not. In regards to your statement of relevance, no doubt that revenue streams have little to no relevance to the program been installed. It's whole purpose is to return revenue to the authors or publishers, hence its default setting. I'm not arguing in the contrary. Default settings exist, you're meant too adjust for your needs/wants.

Really depends if you're been exploited legally or illegally, as there's a clear definition within law and business practice. This shouldn't be confused or compared with illegal practice as this isn't. For example, a user not keeping there computer updated (there fault) and finds his computer exploited due to vulnerabilities. The owner still hasn't given consent to be hacked/accessed remotely/etc. In reference to JD + facemoods, When the user accepts the terms and agrees to install facemoods they have given there consent, big difference.

Companies love fine print, phone/internet service providers here do it all the time also. Many years ago (10~) our major telco went from having unlimited data allowances to 3gb/month regardless of your internet speed (cable/adsl) == 300MB/day. They got away with it as it was written in the terms they could change at any point.
Just because it is legally justifyable, which it obviously is, does not make it right or morally ok. These business practises are awful, you know that as well as I do. Such things should be fought and not accepted on the basis of "everyone is doing it and it's legal".


Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
Default settings exist, you're meant too adjust for your needs/wants.
Sure, you are meant to choose between "screw me over" and "do not screw me over". Naturally, no one wants to be screwed over, yet the default option is "screw me over" (to put it a bit more bluntly).

Last edited by Spooky; 22.09.2011 at 12:24.
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