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  #61  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
Your disclaimer is worth nothing because under your name I see JD-Supporter which contradicts what you're saying. You belong to jD's organisation. Also using the word "Personally" at the end of your post might let people think you aren't speaking freely most of the time.
No I haven't contradicted myself.

Once again you lack of understanding really showing, I'll try and explain (but only once).

The supporter tag is used as reference to other forum users, to indicate that I'm part of the jdownloader supporter team. This does not imply/indicate that I'm working for or associated with (owner) Appwork. Jdownloader supporter/developer doesn't necessarily have to be associated with Appwork.

Revenue earnt is going to Appwork and not jdownloader, as I understand it. Just like your donations on Paypal/Flattr.

The use of 'Personally' would imply that I'm only speaking on 'my own behalf/opinions of' and not necessarily that of jdownloader policy or of the support team. It's a indication of context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
The installer instructions are written in barely readable font and some people haven't the eyes you have. Note that I don't know anybody who reads licence agreements, because I don't know any lawyers.
better turn your computer off your breaking the law *shock horror*

Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
I thought all people working for this project are volunteers, who don't want to be paid. I can understand that servers and bandwidth cost money, but there are places where open software can be hosted for free. Why isn't this road taken?
No, the Appwork guys you could say are getting paid to code/maintain jdownloader, they code this during business work hours day in day out. They have the controlling interest and are the copyright owners of jdownloader and associated projects.

The rest of us are volunteers and are not on the payroll or associated with (ownership of) Appwork, that I know of.

And to the last sentence ill let the Appwork guys answer this, as this is there domain.
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Last edited by raztoki; 22.09.2011 at 12:53.
  #62  
Old 22.09.2011, 12:52
avoidz
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Good comments, Spooky. JD's reputation has been tarnished like so many other once-reputable programs over the years. Bundling junkware with your software is a sure way to lose users. They can justify a thousand different ways and blame users an equal amount, but it all amounts to the same screw-over of loading installers with opt-in (by default) stuff no one would ever want under normal circumstances.

JDownloader is good software ON ITS OWN.
  #63  
Old 22.09.2011, 13:26
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@Spooky

Or the third radio tab option : skip installation = drama free

I was never arguing a moral standpoint, I've always said it's user error if they have installed by mistake. As this can be totally avoided if user follows prompts.

In the perfect world it would be nice not having to run revenue raising addons within installers (it's not part of jd). But business' have costs which need to be recovered either by these type of revenue streams or by charging customers for licences (As this is open source that's off the cards). Revenue needs to be found to cover costs, funding research and development, paying staff and other costs.


@avoidz

yes opt in are the default settings. As explained many times already.
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  #64  
Old 22.09.2011, 14:15
remi
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Your comments are sometimes as fuzzy and incomprehensible as the fine print of licence agreements. You could have become a rich lawyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
Really depends if you're been exploited legally or illegally, as there's a clear definition within law and business practice. This shouldn't be confused or compared with illegal practice as this isn't. For example, a user not keeping there computer updated (there fault) and finds his computer exploited due to vulnerabilities.
That's a nice point you make there. Indeed, legal exploitation probably is more common than exploitation that is forbidden by law. Most laws exploit the weak and increase the power of the rich elites. The distinction between legal and illegal exploitation makes no sense. Exploitation defined as "unjust benefit" in a political- economical context is always wrong, ethically speaking.

Note that you can't blame a person if a person decides not to update software as I'm doing now with jD because I know the updates contain serious bugs. Note that vulnerabilities can be introduced by updating a system.

Coa's intention to remove the malware was was written on 29.04.2011. Almost five months later nothing has changed.

If you're part of jD's official supporter team then you're by definition part of jD's organisation. I know that jD is being developed by AppWork UG. That simply means you're an unpaid (exploited?) worker of AppWork.

Some of AppWork's revenue is spend on jD because jD is an AppWork project/product.

I'm sure you aren't reading the fine print of licence agreements because it's incomprehensible and you would spend your whole life doing nothing else than trying to understand them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
No, the Appwork guys you could say are getting paid to code/maintain jdownloader, they code this during business work hours day in day out. They have the controlling interest and are the copyright owners of jdownloader and associated projects.

The rest of us are volunteers and are not on the payroll or associated with (ownership of) Appwork, that I know of.
If some of jD's developers are working for money then that would create an unjust situation because most jD developers aren't paid. It would however explain the existing state of the jD project.

If on top of what I wrote before you no longer own your own code you contributed to the project, you've been ripped a second time. A nice example of "illegal exploitation" as you call it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
Revenue needs to be found to cover costs, funding research and development, paying staff and other costs.
Note that most open source software is developed by volunteers because it would otherwise create an unjustifiable distinction between the developers. Most people don't like the idea of being exploited. I know that Linux and some other projects/products are an exception but most open source projects have many more volunteers than paid developers.

@Spooky

I think jD has had malware in it at other times as well. At least one of them was detected by an anti-malware organisation and when a customer reported it it was removed by the programmers. If my memory is good it was the 'Kikin' adware.
  #65  
Old 22.09.2011, 14:58
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Hi
I must admit i didn't read your post (only the last lines) but as far as i know the kikin threads were never removed.
Maybe they exist in the archive so you can't find it using the boardsearch!

GreeZ psp
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Quote:
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Do you have Nero installed?
That's true James
Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Die Leute verstehen einfach nicht dass nur weil man mit einer Waffe auch auf Menschen schießen kann dass ein Schützenver​ein kein Ort für Amoklaufide​en ist
  #66  
Old 22.09.2011, 17:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
@Spooky

Or the third radio tab option : skip installation = drama free

I was never arguing a moral standpoint, I've always said it's user error if they have installed by mistake. As this can be totally avoided if user follows prompts.
And I was never arguing, that it's a user "mistake", if he does not look closely. My issue is the moral implication of including malware, especially in what I think is a good piece of software.



Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
@Spooky

I think jD has had malware in it at other times as well. At least one of them was detected by an anti-malware organisation and when a customer reported it it was removed by the programmers. If my memory is good it was the 'Kikin' adware.
Oh, I didn't know that.
  #67  
Old 22.09.2011, 17:11
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@Spooky
Please read my posts before responding to remis as i posted a "statement"!

GreeZ psp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaz View Post
Do you have Nero installed?
That's true James
Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Die Leute verstehen einfach nicht dass nur weil man mit einer Waffe auch auf Menschen schießen kann dass ein Schützenver​ein kein Ort für Amoklaufide​en ist
  #68  
Old 22.09.2011, 17:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pspzockerscene View Post
@Spooky
Please read my posts before responding to remis as i posted a "statement"!

GreeZ psp
Well, I did read your post before responding to him. But you didn't convey anything, other than the threads still being there. Did you mean, that there wasn't actually any Malware/Adware and it was just a false positive?

// but since it's in the Wiki, I guess that is not the case: http://jdownloader.org/kikin
Is kikin also still included with JD? //² ah, the kikin desktop browser plugin was discontinued by kikin ( **External links are only visible to Support Staff****External links are only visible to Support Staff**)

Last edited by Spooky; 22.09.2011 at 17:19.
  #69  
Old 22.09.2011, 17:37
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@remi
It really depends on the project, lots of open source projects are actually backed by large commercial enterprise or educational institutions. Any significant progress made are from commerical interests as they have the labour and skill base. MySQL was sun controlled now oracle along with java, etc. Lot of the money made off open source projects, usually from hardware based sales associated with open source os/software (eg sunos+ mysql) :: or from support based contracts (hardware/sofware), or from even patients. Highly depending on licence agreements. But each project is different, there are many different licence agreements used within the open source sector.

No I'm not associated with appwork in any official manner, other than providing code to jdownloader. I'm only associated indirectly with appwork as they are jdownloader owners, so my code ends up in ownership of jdownloader / appwork (which you sign legal wavier to let this happen. That's how open source contributing tends to work, in some manner, its not as free and open as one might think, but highly dependant on the project.

. . ----(donate)----[end users]<----------
. . \/. . . . . . . . . . ./\ . . . \/ . . . . . . .\/
[appwork] <----> [jdownloader] <--> [supporters]
. . /\. . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . .. . .|
. . ----(donate)---------------------------

- = interactions , . = white space fixer


@Spooky
Well it wasn't a moral decision it was economic decision guess that's my point. When money is concerned, it usually takes preference over some peoples opinions on default settings inside installers, as long as you can opt out that's all that matters.
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Last edited by raztoki; 22.09.2011 at 17:42. Reason: stupid forum strips empty spaces chars
  #70  
Old 23.09.2011, 11:09
markharbo
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Yes I have made a small mistake by not clicking do not install facemoods. But please please make it by default that its not checked. or please find another program to be sponsor.
Not really mad at you but mad at facemood.
Hope you will consider it.

And to remove the program:
You need to uninstall on your computer, uninstall the addon in firefox, uninstall the toolbar, In right side of the searchbar and remove facemoodsearch again, enter about:config search for facemood and reset all the lines. find a link to install google as the fav. search when you search in the smartbar You can find it here **External links are only visible to Support Staff****External links are only visible to Support Staff**

Then you should be finish completely.
Hope this will help people.
  #71  
Old 23.09.2011, 11:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
@Spooky
Well it wasn't a moral decision it was economic decision guess that's my point. When money is concerned, it usually takes preference over some peoples opinions on default settings inside installers, as long as you can opt out that's all that matters.
It's not about "some peoples opinions on default settings inside installers". It's about tricking people into installing something completely useless (and might I add also something that is annoying to remove) alongside the software you actually wanted to install, in order to get money. Which is, at the very least, a morally questionable business decision.
  #72  
Old 24.09.2011, 09:55
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@spooky
Guess we have differing opinions then, I see it fine as long as you can op out. If a user doesn't read the installer and installs what ever additional software then I'm of the opinion it's their own fault.
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  #73  
Old 24.09.2011, 10:14
remi
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I agree with Spooky's opinion and probably with most jD customers.

What you're saying is exactly what all power elites are saying all the time. "You should have known the rules", "you should have known the law", while most people studying law know that laws are full of contradictions and are completely incomprehensible by 99% of the population, including some judges and lawyers. If everything would be comprehensible why would you need judges anyway?

Does that mean that 99% of the population is an idiot?

Do you know that most Americans belonging to the middle class are paying federal taxes even without rules/laws that force them to do that? I would rather call this sort of behaviour their own fault. If they would all stand up they could finally beat that powerful IRS monster, but they don't and silently collaborate with the regime. It costs them lots of money that disappears into the pockets of the corrupt elites.

BTW, thanks for the info in your previous posts. I now more clearly understand the causes of the problems of the jD project. What I don't understand is why AppWorks wants to own all the code. If it is for commercialising jD then this would mean the end of jD, because several other projects will take over jD's leading market position. Most people understand that only free, open source software will be really successful.
  #74  
Old 24.09.2011, 10:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
And if it was questionable package/software, it shouldn't be in the installer at all.
Which facemoods obviously is. So you agree with me then..?

Last edited by Think3r; 27.09.2011 at 13:27. Reason: post visible again
  #75  
Old 24.09.2011, 10:30
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No I do not agree with you hence my statements above.

Not sure where you're quoting that from, as I've never said that.
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  #76  
Old 24.09.2011, 11:16
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@Spooky

EDIT : raztoki removed the following paragraph, because it would be "speculation/rant" :-

I read "And if it was questionable package/software, it shouldn't be in the installer at all." as well. It might have been his personal opinion but on this board raztoki now mostly speaks as a person belonging to the jD organisation. Most people show this type of schizophrenic behaviour when they're new in an organisation but after some time they start speaking the propaganda of the organisation. It's just a matter of survival and it shows their loyalty.

@raztoki

I admire your skills to make something simple as incomprehensible as can possibly be and that's why I don't understand :-

Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
. . ----(donate)----[end users]<----------
. . \/. . . . . . . . . . ./\ . . . \/ . . . . . . .\/
[appwork] <----> [jdownloader] <--> [supporters]
. . /\. . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . .. . .|
. . ----(donate)---------------------------

- = interactions , . = white space fixer
Is this a superposition of a Chinese character and some English words?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raztoki View Post
No I do not agree with you hence my statements above.

Not sure where you're quoting that from, as I've never said that.
EDIT : raztoki removed the following text from my post because it would be 'unsubstantiated' :-

This was a reply to Spooky's post. Why did you remove Spooky's posts? They were just quoting what you wrote before.

Last edited by remi; 05.10.2011 at 08:37. Reason: removed accusation
  #77  
Old 24.09.2011, 11:19
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REMOVED


Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
This was a reply to Spooky's post. Why did you remove Spooky's posts? They were just quoting what you wrote before.
Yeah, why did the post get removed? That's a pretty odd behaviour from the forum moderators I have to say.

Last edited by raztoki; 25.09.2011 at 03:56. Reason: Miss qoute first and only warning
  #78  
Old 24.09.2011, 14:49
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Guys (all of you), I have to remind you that all of the last posts here are off-topic. Please do not discuss about your personal opinions, that's why we are able to pm someone.
Stop it and return to topic or I'll close the topic.
Greetz
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  #79  
Old 25.09.2011, 03:31
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I never stated that, not sure where that text came from (Rouge forum vBulletin). I will edit/delete any post reflecting any miss quotes as its not what I posted, and give you guys warnings.
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  #80  
Old 27.09.2011, 13:21
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raztoki will complain everything. Please believe him as his explanation might sound a little like an excuse.
Greetz


PS: I undeleted the post.
EDIT BY PSP:
And sure you were forced to install Facemoods...
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Last edited by Think3r; 04.10.2011 at 20:46.
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